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26 January 2010 @ 12:06 am
Discussion 01 - The Role of Fate  
Can I just say how much wicked_seraph and I love you all? Seriously, thank you for keeping the community active and alive! ♥ I think jackks is on to something - I don't think I've ever seen such an active community for Notre Dame de Paris. Again, you guys totally take all the credit for that.

brooke messaged me a few weeks ago with a great suggestion to make the comm even better: every week, your lovely mods post a question for discussion. I've already seen some wonderful discussions in here, but I'd love to make it so everyone gets in it. I hope it doesn't sound like homework to you guys - I personally love peeling apart the play/book and examining it, though I'm not sure if the rest of you guys are game for it.

Anyhow~ our first question for the comm! After jackks's awesome post with Frollo, it only fits that the first question centers on "his" word: fate.

Do you think that it was fate that everyone's lives were essentially ruined in the wake of Esmeralda, or do you think that it was their own choices that sealed their destiny?
 
 
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ALC: Frollo Cassock Ripjackks on January 26th, 2010 09:24 am (UTC)
However much Hugo and the characters yabber on about Fate, I don't think there is any such "large mysterious concept" at work here at all. The outcome is the result of a friction of human wills rubbing against eachother, and in the case of Frollo and Esmeralda, utterly uncomprimising in their aims - Frollo: For Esmeralda to have no-one but himself, and Esmeralda: To have no-one but Phoebus. Obviously, Frollo is in the position of power to carry out his will against Esmeralda, though he gives her the choice: Himself or death. She chooses death. Thus, both Frollo and Esmeralda, out of stubborness for never departing from what they each desire, are only themselves responsible for their joint destruction. They really should stop scapegoating the "mysterious hand of fate".

Actually, one of the reasons I like the book so much is because there is no "Hand of God" present. i.e. Many writers, as the Gods of their fictional universe, are compelled to ensure events result that the "bad" characters have bad ends, and the "good" characters are, by the end, rewarded for their struggle. Where as in the real world, if a God exists, then he is nowhere near as just, or compelled to reward good behaviour during one's lifetime (apparently we have to wait till our deaths for that).

NDP reflects this well I think.

Edited at 2010-01-26 10:26 am (UTC)
silverwhistle: Unicorn Ladysilverwhistle on January 26th, 2010 11:11 am (UTC)
Yup.

She chooses death

But even then, she is allowed a get-out clause, by her Mum. But by bawling out "Phœbus!" even after her mother's told her to stay down and keep quiet, she gets them both killed (and in so doing, indirectly, gets both Claude and Quasimodo killed, too).
ALC: Frollo Thinking Sinjackks on January 26th, 2010 06:01 pm (UTC)
The utterly crashing coincidence of Esmeralda finding her mother at the end of the book could, I suppose, be seen as Fate actually working in Esmeralda's favour for a moment... And then she calls out "Phoebus!" and the final nail is hammered in the coffin. Oddly, if I recall, on being marched to the noose, she then reflects on the "inescapable power of fate".

No, dear. It's not fate. It's you.
✖ Bleed Peroxide ✖: Jak and Daxter ★ Got A Few Surprisesbleed_peroxide on January 26th, 2010 06:56 pm (UTC)
No, dear. It's not fate. It's you.

I laughed at this so hard. Harsh but so, so true.
silverwhistle: Rudelsilverwhistle on January 26th, 2010 07:48 pm (UTC)
Entirely true.
She's a complete liability.
silverwhistle: Claudesilverwhistle on January 26th, 2010 07:15 pm (UTC)
Precisely.
She's handed a huge 'Get out of Jail Free' card, and promptly screws it up.
Pâquette should have slapped her.
The girl really is too stupid to live.
Reid: clopin will fuck up your shitladybastet92 on January 26th, 2010 08:06 pm (UTC)
Imagine if she and Phoebus had got it on, and she wound up pregant.

Their child probably wouldn't have enough brain cells to survive.
silverwhistle: Unicorn Ladysilverwhistle on January 26th, 2010 09:01 pm (UTC)
Well, possibly to survive.
But not to be able to walk and talk simultaneously.

(Yes, I am that much of a bitch about those two!)
silverwhistle: Rudelsilverwhistle on January 26th, 2010 11:17 am (UTC)
You forgot the other great, uncompromising passion: of a boy for a goat… ;-D
✖ Bleed Peroxide ✖: 浜崎あゆみ ★ Toxicbleed_peroxide on January 26th, 2010 01:18 pm (UTC)
I agree - one thing I like about the book is that there's no such thing as a deus ex machina that can get the characters out of a sticky situation, no hand of God that can pluck them out of a circumstance because they wish they could take it back.

No doubt Esméralda had wished at some point that she could have been kinder to Quasimodo, a bitch to Phoebus, or stabbed Frollo after deceiving him, but hindsight is 20/20. Instead of rewarding her for being a pure (and disputably "good") character like many authors, Hugo lets her live with the consequences of her choices. There's a lot of grey areas regarding morality, where Frollo isn't a bad person because of his less-than-virtuous feelings and actions, just like Esméralda is not a perfect girl just because she's beautiful (which seems to be an all-too-common motif where beauty = perfection).
silverwhistle: Unicorn Ladysilverwhistle on January 26th, 2010 07:37 pm (UTC)
No doubt Esméralda had wished at some point…

I very much doubt that she did. She remains besotted with Phœbus, which is what kills her. She's blinkered to the end.
✖ Bleed Peroxide ✖: FMA ★ Unimpressedbleed_peroxide on January 27th, 2010 05:36 pm (UTC)
*sigh* You're probably right. I try to give her some credit, but she does every little to deserve it.
Reidladybastet92 on January 26th, 2010 08:36 pm (UTC)
As much as I like the idea that she regrets her decisions (hence my fanfiction), I really doubt she actually does. If she's foolish enough to risk her groundless love for her life, I doubt she was thinking of anything else but Phoebus the time she was at the hangman's noose.
✖ Bleed Peroxide ✖: Chrono Crusade ★ Bittersweet Smilebleed_peroxide on January 27th, 2010 05:37 pm (UTC)
*nod nod* I wish your fic was canon, because I really liked the idea of her maybe having the hindsight to think that she was wrong at some point. I wish she could have at last seen that she was cruel to Quasimodo.

Alas, she likely wasn't. She's not a villain by any means, but she can't see past the PHOEBUS, MON PHOEBUS blinders. :/
twolionsstwolionss on January 26th, 2010 06:01 pm (UTC)
Very well put.
There are so many decisive points in the NDdP storyline: if Paquette's father had not died when he did and leaving her poor and unable to sustain herself and her mother, if the gypsies had not visited Reims and stealing Esme, if Frollo had walked away from the Foundlings' cradle that Quasimodo Sunday, if Gringoire had not yelled for help when he saw Esme being abducted by Quasi, if... if... Endless ifs. It's pure chance things happened the way they did. Nothing was pre-destined. The characters may think that they have a choice and that they can determine their future (or the future of others) but nothing goes according to their plans. What if Esme chooses death over Claude? It's her cry of "Phoebus!" that kills her, her own fault, not the priest's revenge.

A very nice thread you have here!
silverwhistle: Claudesilverwhistle on January 26th, 2010 11:54 am (UTC)
It's very much a matter of choice, although their personalities to a great extent predetermine what choices they will make. (But being fictional, Fate obviously has a hand in it, having the name of Victor Hugo, master of all their destinies!) It is a huge narrative coincidence to have Esméralda and Quasimodo linked from infancy and Pâquette be Esméralda's real mother.

it only fits that the first question centres on "his" word: fate.

First of all, Jehan (whose Greek is unreliable) mistranslates ΑΝΑΓΚΗ. What it really means is:
1. Lat. necessitas, force, constraint, necessity… 2. necessity, natural want or desire, such as hunger [Perhaps in the context of NDdP, sexual desire?] 3. actual force, violence: hence bodily pain, suffering.

In the case of Claude, it embraces all these meanings. Jehan reveals not only how little he understands Greek, but also how little he understands what his brother is suffering.

All the characters could have averted what befalls them by making different decisions. Had Claude not decided to send Quasimodo to abduct Esméralda, she would not have met and become obsessed with Phœbus. Everything hinges on this event. But after that – they could still have done different things. Claude is genuinely ill – having a psychological breakdown, as well as the physical effects of his wounds – so becomes less of a free agent as it goes on. A happy outcome for him is difficult to imagine. She would have destroyed him just as surely, had she thrown herself into his arms (it would be a Blaue Engel-type scenario: it's one thing for Pierre to do tricks with chairs and cats in the street, but Claude?!).

Esméralda's lack of street-wisdom, considering her upbringing, is a problem in the novel, as it makes her less than believable as a child of the streets. She could have agreed to Claude's offers, and knifed him once they'd got around a corner, or played on his naïvety and led him by the nose. Using and duping him would not have compromised her passion for Phœbus. She could have kept quiet when her mother told her to.

And of course, Pierre could have made off with Esméralda, leaving Claude and Djali (the 2 greatest minds in Paris!) together.
✖ Bleed Peroxide ✖: Kingdom Hearts ★ Desperationbleed_peroxide on January 26th, 2010 01:25 pm (UTC)
First of all, Jehan (whose Greek is unreliable) mistranslates ΑΝΑΓΚΗ. What it really means is:
1. Lat. necessitas, force, constraint, necessity… 2. necessity, natural want or desire, such as hunger [Perhaps in the context of NDdP, sexual desire?] 3. actual force, violence: hence bodily pain, suffering.

In the case of Claude, it embraces all these meanings. Jehan reveals not only how little he understands Greek, but also how little he understands what his brother is suffering.


That's really interesting - I never knew that. The word still very much works for him, but not at all the way I had seen it before. I can see how one could interpret "force" as a supernatural force at work, but your explanation does make more sense, especially when applied to Frollo.

The attempted kidnapping is definitely the event that sets the entire events of the story in motion. One thing (amongst many!) that I love about this novel is that Hugo lets events build upon one another, where nothing is truly trivial in the grand scope of things. Instead of just letting them gently ride out a seemingly inconsequential choice, he lets it snowball into something greater - it's not only great storytelling, but it's life. We've all had that happen, where something that didn't seem like a huge deal at the time winds up defining the rest of our lives.

Esméralda is woefully naive, which I've always marveled at considering her upbringing. It's one of the few cases where I desperately wish more of Disney's re-imagining held more truth in it. That Esméralda was street-smart, she knew how to outsmart Frollo and didn't fall for his traps. (And let's not even get started on Phoebus!) But alas, Disney goes more for the happy ending than the realistic, tragic ending. Why couldn't she have just listened to her mother in this case?!

Claude + Djali = Geniuses Of Paris. I think that Phoebus and Esméralda share Djali's brain between them ;D
silverwhistle: Claudesilverwhistle on January 26th, 2010 07:17 pm (UTC)
I think that Phoebus and Esméralda share Djali's brain between them

Whereas the goat has a human mind!
✖ Bleed Peroxide ✖: FMA ★ WINK WINKbleed_peroxide on January 27th, 2010 05:38 pm (UTC)
I know, right? I think the goat made some of the wiser choices, though spelling out "Phoebus" likely wasn't the best one XD
silverwhistle: Unicorn Ladysilverwhistle on January 27th, 2010 06:08 pm (UTC)
Djali is magnificent, generally.
ex_heartill on January 26th, 2010 03:28 pm (UTC)
While it would be cool to say that the whole book is driven because of fate, it all really boils down to various people making some really bad choices. We make choices everyday, whether they be good or bad, selfish or not selfish. Pushing the blame on Esmeralda, a young innocent naive girl that really just needed a good smack, isn't right.

First off Frollo, he's lived his whole life as this Priest, right? Yet it only takes one look of a young girl dancing to set his heart aflame. He made the choice to forgo his beliefs, and his God for some girl. Phoebus too for that matter, made the choice to abandon Fluer. Esmeralda makes the choice to give up virtually everything for the aforementioned Captain. You could shift the blame to any one of these characters. Their choices set in motion this spiral of death and destruction that no one could escape from. Except Gringoire and his goat.

I really think Hugo was giving us all a warning: be careful of the choices you make. While the consequences may not seem clear, they will always be some whether they be good or bad. No one in this story ever stopped to think if what they were doing was wrong, and ultimately everyone got what they deserved based on their actions. Phoebus had to deal with the consequence of marriage, Jehan, Frollo and Esmeralda dealt with the consequence of death, and Gringoire dealt with the consequence of being a sexually confused idiot that can't write to save his life.

I can't wait for the next discussion! You have a great taste in music, BTW. BoA is amazing.
✖ Bleed Peroxide ✖: FMA ★ Heretic's Biblebleed_peroxide on January 26th, 2010 05:54 pm (UTC)
Pushing the blame on Esmeralda, a young innocent naive girl that really just needed a good smack, isn't right.

Exactly. I mean, I don't deny that she had a huge role in the way things go because almost all the mens' choices had to do with her. But it's like blaming some poor pedestrian crossing the road for a huge car wreck just because they were there at the wrong time and place. I mean, you could stretch to say that it's their fault since they were texting and walking across the street, but the car driver could have also seen them beforehand, known the potential for a wreck, and avoided it as best they could. It's a stretch as far as analogies go, sure, but I see the events in Notre Dame as being one huuuuuge car wreck.

I really think Hugo was giving us all a warning: be careful of the choices you make. While the consequences may not seem clear, they will always be some whether they be good or bad.

Absolutely agreed. They all made the choice - the only person really forced to do anything was probably Quasimodo, which was to kidnap Esméralda. I think that while the consequences might have been a bit worse than they deserved in some cases (such as dying because of falling in love for the first time, and acting in the foolishness that can come as a result), they nevertheless had to pay for what they did. In fear of sounding like a total Fullmetal dork, it's totally equivalent exchange.

I'm so glad a bunch of you guys chipped in. ♥ I'm surprised that everyone's on the same page - I thought for sure that everyone would pick "fate". Everyone has some great ideas. Seriously, I love me some BoA. I'm actually listening to her right now after a marathon of Combichrist last night. ♥
silverwhistle: Claudesilverwhistle on January 26th, 2010 07:24 pm (UTC)
I mean, I don't deny that she had a huge role in the way things go because almost all the men's choices had to do with her. But it's like blaming some poor pedestrian crossing the road for a huge car wreck just because they were there at the wrong time and place.

No.
Because she isn't a passive victim. She actively makes bad choices herself.
With her background, she trusts a guy whose idea of a first date is a sleazy knocking-shop run by a woman who is obviously a bawd? She has opportunities to get out of bad situations, which she could use, if she had the wit to manipulate Claude's infatuation. And ultimately, she lands her mother and herself in trouble because she can't keep her mouth shut.

I don't suffer fools in real life or fiction, and she really is irredeemably stupid.
ex_heartill on January 27th, 2010 05:14 pm (UTC)
She really is irredeemably stupid.

If you think about it, everyone is stupid in their own way in the novel. Esmeralda is stupid for her actions regarding Phoebus, Phoebus is stupid for leaving his fiance just to be with a young beautiful gypsy, Frollo is stupid for falling for a gypsy, forsaking his beliefs, and nearly taking advantage of her, Quasimodo is stupid for following the orders of Frollo. Pushing the blame onto Esmeralda for everything isn't correct.
silverwhistle: Unicorn Ladysilverwhistle on January 27th, 2010 05:59 pm (UTC)
But sadly, there's not much more to her than that. Most of the others have more to them, which is why you care more about them. She's an airhead – casually kind, casually cruel, and no matter what horrors befall her, too superficial for them to affect her very deeply. (Actually, that's why people like her tend to come through bad experiences relatively undamaged psychologically – because they live in the shallows.) She and Phœbus are well matched.
✖ Bleed Peroxide ✖: FMA ★ Heretic's Biblebleed_peroxide on January 27th, 2010 05:47 pm (UTC)
I don't deny that she made some seriously foolish decisions, because trust me, she definitely doesn't win the award for "smartest character in literary history". Quite the opposite. But I think that while her own choices definitely had an impact on the others in the novel, they also made choices that landed their asses in the frying pan, so to speak. She was irrevocably involved in everyone's decisions, but I personally don't have the heart to pin every bad thing that happens solely on her. Others made horrible decisions as well, such as Phoebus leaving his fiancé to chase after a gypsy.
ex_heartill on January 27th, 2010 05:10 pm (UTC)
People need someone to blame, so Esmeralda is the obvious choice. No one is to blame in the book; they are all victims of their choices and actions which are often done blindly because of powerful emotions. Esmeralda was simply a girl in love, and you know how some girls can act when they're like that. Some of her actions are understandable really.

In fear of sounding like a total Fullmetal dork, it's totally equivalent exchange.

EPIC WORDING.
✖ Bleed Peroxide ✖: FMA ★ Stay With Mebleed_peroxide on January 27th, 2010 05:50 pm (UTC)
I agree - I mean, she obviously made some foolish decisions and had blinders on as far as Phoebus was concerned, but I do think that others' choices can't be entirely blamed on her, even if they involved the girl in some way. I mean, can one blame Esméralda because Phoebus chose to leave his fiancé for her? It involves her, but she didn't tell him what to do. She's stupid, yes, but she's also young. It'd be different if she'd been middle-aged and supposed to have more sensibility, but she's only a teenager in love. She can't be expected to act completely rational in the face of that.

Glad you approved >:3
silverwhistle: Rudelsilverwhistle on January 27th, 2010 06:07 pm (UTC)
I wasn't that thick as a teenager, and I despised the girls who were: they tended to end up pregnant as soon as they left school (if not before).

Neither she nor Phœbus are characters I can imagine being able to have a conversation with. As far as I'm concerned, they deserve each other: c'est a mau rat mau chat, to quote Villon.
✖ Bleed Peroxide ✖: Jak and Daxter ★ Nursing Some Boozebleed_peroxide on January 27th, 2010 06:14 pm (UTC)
Oh no, I'm not saying all girls are like that. Unfortunately, many girls that are teenagers don't act too different than Esméralda. I didn't act that foolishly when I was in high school, but a lot of 'em did. I was tempted to make 'em all read the novel so they could see themselves in her, and maybe get the hint that HEY, HEY, THIS ISN'T REALLY SMART.

Both seem to lack in the conversation department, lol. I gotta ask: does that mean "I'm a lecher, she's a lecher to match"?
silverwhistle: Rudelsilverwhistle on January 27th, 2010 07:02 pm (UTC)
does that mean "I'm a lecher, she's a lecher to match"?

"A bad cat for a bad rat" = "we're two of a kind".
✖ Bleed Peroxide ✖: FMA ★ WINK WINKbleed_peroxide on January 28th, 2010 04:22 am (UTC)
Ahhh, gotcha. I Googled the phrase with "English translation" and the one with "lecher" is what I got as a result. O_O
silverwhistle: Claudesilverwhistle on January 28th, 2010 06:36 pm (UTC)
That's more of a translation of another line in the same stanza: Ie suis paillart, la paillarde me suit. It's from the Ballade de la Grosse Margot in Le Grand Testament, wherein Villon talks explicitly about his dealings with an overweight madam called Fat Margot. C'est a mau rat mau chat is his deliberate inversion of the adage a bon chat, bon rat.

I got into NDdP because of a teenaged interest in Villon.
silverwhistle: Claudesilverwhistle on January 26th, 2010 08:05 pm (UTC)
Claude breaks my heart because one knows he's worth so much more. If he was to wreck his life and career over a woman, why couldn't it have been one more worthy of him? – A Hypatia or an Heloïse, not some bimbo airhead who squeaks that he's "old and ugly" and wouldn't appreciate his philosophy books even if one fell on her (which, sadly, it doesn't). But sadly, intelligent men (or women) who are out of touch with their emotions can get swept off their feet by physically desirable morons and self-destruct.

Pierre's a sweetie, the sanest person in the book: I was glad he and the goat made it out alive (and together).
silverwhistle: Claudesilverwhistle on January 27th, 2010 07:12 pm (UTC)
First off Frollo, he's lived his whole life as this Priest, right? Yet it only takes one look of a young girl dancing to set his heart aflame. He made the choice to forgo his beliefs, and his God for some girl.

Because he's cracking up.
Because when he was too young to understand what he was being committed to, his parents put him into a career in an institution which makes cruel and unnatural demands upon its staff.
His tragedy is that he is a normal young man trapped in a monstrous organisation, and is destroyed because it has warped his entirely natural urges.
twolionsstwolionss on January 29th, 2010 06:28 pm (UTC)
His tragedy is that he is too decent for his own good. And of course, the fact that he misunderstood himself when decided to become a priest (for the sake of that brat Jehan...)
silverwhistle: Claudesilverwhistle on January 29th, 2010 08:29 pm (UTC)
And of course, the fact that he misunderstood himself when decided to become a priest (for the sake of that brat Jehan...)

Well, it had pretty much already been decided for him by his parents, when they sent him to the cloister of the college for education as a child. Effectively, he was in the situation of a child oblate in a monastery. He has known no other world, so how can he make any other informed choice? He sticks with the only world he knows: a life in the Church. As an innocent, unworldly 19-year-old, he can't imagine an alternative.
twolionsstwolionss on January 31st, 2010 06:55 pm (UTC)
Well, from what I gather reading the chapter “Claude Frollo” in the novel, it wasn’t like he spent his student life in jail! Hugo describes the way students used to party at the time when Claude was attending the college of Torchi (which, according to Hugo, was situated at the University, a true students’ town with taverns, brothels, game houses and all sorts of temptations). True, he didn’t mix much with the crowds there but I think it was a matter of character. He had the chance to party like the others. Who was to stop him? He just didn’t want to. Torchi is not a monastery, Jehan is a student there and yet we see him coming and going whenever it pleases him – actually we never see him there, hence his lack of knowledge in Greek:)

And again, in the context of the novel, it was Claude and not his parents that made the final decision. When the time came for him to actually decide what he wanted to do with his life, his parents died. He had no one to answer to for his choice but himself.
He could have been an excellent doctor or law professor or whatever his heart desired but he chose the clergy, the path least compatible to his nature because he wanted to dedicate his life not to God but to his brother. I mean, it wasn’t even a matter of obeying his parents’ wishes or his supposed vocation or ignorance of the ways of the world. He became a priest for the sake of his “first love”, as Hugo describes Claude’s feelings towards Jehan. He loved the scoundrel so deeply, he swore not to love anyone else and only priesthood could guarantee him eternal damnation if he did. Typical, self-destructive Claude.
silverwhistle: Claudesilverwhistle on January 31st, 2010 07:20 pm (UTC)
Hugo describes the way students used to party at the time when Claude was attending the college of Torchi (which, according to Hugo, was situated at the University, a true students’ town with taverns, brothels, game houses and all sorts of temptations). True, he didn’t mix much with the crowds there but I think it was a matter of character. He had the chance to party like the others. Who was to stop him?

It's called 'brainwashing', dear.

He'd been given to the college cloister when he was younger than his peers, and effectively brought up there. His parents had expectations for him. What's clear is that he's always felt he had to be the 'good boy', the 'good son', the good brother', to do what people expected of him. He's internalised others' expectations.
Эстелла Уильямовна Блэкestella_of_hope on January 26th, 2010 05:10 pm (UTC)
Choice. Choice makes everything. Every minuite, every second of our life we make choices, big or small, which determine our lives. So they did.
✖ Bleed Peroxide ✖: Dir en grey ★ Pomegranate Moonbleed_peroxide on January 26th, 2010 05:55 pm (UTC)
*nod nod* Agreed. They had to live with the results of what they did - it might have been a bit more severe than you'd think it warranted (such as essentially being hanged because you fell in love with a bad boy), but you can't do anything without a price.
Reid: esmeraldaladybastet92 on January 26th, 2010 08:27 pm (UTC)
I really don't see 'fate' affecting these characters as much as a series of events toppling on top of each other. Unlike fate, these events were caused by the choices and emotions of the characters, but I think as the story goes on, the events get harder to stop as the characters become less rational and the conequences for their actions get bigger, until the end, the events are an unstoppable landslide.

What really caused the story to topple over is that all the characters were solely emotionally-driven by the end of the story. Frollo was too consumned by his passion, Esmeralda was too blinded by her obession for Phoebus, and Quasimodo was too in love with Esmeralda. None of them could behave or think rationally anymore (with Gringoire as the exception). I'm not pleading them innocent of their choices because of this, but I think Hugo is trying to make a point by stripping these characters to their truest forms, the emotional being, and showing havoc that follows their choices. All three of them had several points in the story where they could've made things right, but the key point was when Esmeralda was with her mother and she cried out when she saw Phoebus. "Feeling" over "thinking" was not the best choice for her.

I think that Hugo is basically telling us that humans are not rational beings. Our suger-ego is always fighting with our id, our emotions and wants with our rationality (Frollo perfectly represents this idea). "Fate" has very little to do with this story as a whole; it is the choices of the characters that create their destiny ultimatly, and since their choices got much more diluted and warped thanks to their irrationality, the events of the story eventually transformed into one massive trainwreck that was very hard to stop.

Did that make ANY sense?
silverwhistle: Claudesilverwhistle on January 26th, 2010 09:04 pm (UTC)
Good. Yes, and very much why I believe that that rationality must always come first. It's never a good idea to put it to one side and let emotion take over.
twolionsstwolionss on January 29th, 2010 06:23 pm (UTC)
But then we wouldn't have Frollo and Notre Dame de Paris!
silverwhistle: Unicorn Ladysilverwhistle on January 29th, 2010 08:32 pm (UTC)
I want to see him work through it and come out the other side.
That's why fanfic exists… ;-D
✖ Bleed Peroxide ✖bleed_peroxide on January 26th, 2010 09:48 pm (UTC)
That makes perfect sense. And I agree - they use far too little emotion and don't think through their actions before committing to it. Your mention of superego and id was sexy. The psych nerd approves. I wish I could say something more coherent than "THIS" but your statement was well-said, and there's not much more I can add to it.